Comments on: Responding to…”Pro-lifers: are you willing to adopt all the babies?” http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/ Talking about human rights, abortion, & life. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 12:52:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: moller http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-2/#comment-10870 moller Fri, 12 Aug 2011 22:39:00 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-10870 Great answers, Josh. You touched on a very important point, and one that I've been promoting for years, and that is that the pro-abortion argument is the same argument--the same argument--as the pro-slavery argument. Consider: States' Rights and Personal Rights; Quality of Life of slaves and unwanted children; and the sub-humanness of slaves and unborn children. In a similar vein, we might ask the pro-abortionists: If I agree to allow abortions in every case where a woman's life is in danger, will you agree to disallow them in all other circumstances??? Probably not. Great answers, Josh. You touched on a very important point, and one that I’ve been promoting for years, and that is that the pro-abortion argument is the same argument–the same argument–as the pro-slavery argument. Consider: States’ Rights and Personal Rights; Quality of Life of slaves and unwanted children; and the sub-humanness of slaves and unborn children.

In a similar vein, we might ask the pro-abortionists: If I agree to allow abortions in every case where a woman’s life is in danger, will you agree to disallow them in all other circumstances??? Probably not.

]]> By: Miss Freedom Woman http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-4090 Miss Freedom Woman Wed, 26 Jan 2011 02:18:17 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-4090 GREAT ARTICLE, JOSH!! I personally know several Pro-lifers that are seeking adoption. I will also adopt in the future. It is such a long and EXPENSIVE process. I have an idea... Why don't we as a nation reduce the charges for adoption and the paperwork and paper filing, so that women who are in need of willing couples to adopt their children, are able and free to do so, in a timely manner. Instead of just saying let's destroy the life, if that's what the woman wants. We can make it easier on both ends. The woman struggling with the decision of adoption, the child soon to be murdered and the couple willing to adopt and raise the children with love. Of course, I am being a bit fasicious; however, I am trying to make a point. And that is... NOT all Pro-choicers are in it for the womens rights, they just don't want to have restrictions, guidelines and rules for their life and their bodies. So, to them by standing up for a "woman," allows them to shield themselves from any type of judgement. It doesn't matter what anyone else experiences or goes through, as long as, number one is ok. And of course, that is themselves. The only thing that I can do is pray for people with that mentality. I am a Pro-lifers and I care about the woman, the baby and the couple desiring to adopt. I am not some radical extremist with no heart, religious fanatic, unmerciful and an enemy of womens rights. Come on now, I am a woman. However, I know my role and I know my limitations as a woman. I have rights; however, they are not to supercede other peoples rights, as humans with the breathe of life; regardless, of their location, environment, age or size. I can go on, but I will not. Selah. GREAT ARTICLE, JOSH!! I personally know several Pro-lifers that are seeking adoption. I will also adopt in the future. It is such a long and EXPENSIVE process. I have an idea… Why don't we as a nation reduce the charges for adoption and the paperwork and paper filing, so that women who are in need of willing couples to adopt their children, are able and free to do so, in a timely manner. Instead of just saying let's destroy the life, if that's what the woman wants. We can make it easier on both ends. The woman struggling with the decision of adoption, the child soon to be murdered and the couple willing to adopt and raise the children with love. Of course, I am being a bit fasicious; however, I am trying to make a point. And that is… NOT all Pro-choicers are in it for the womens rights, they just don't want to have restrictions, guidelines and rules for their life and their bodies. So, to them by standing up for a "woman," allows them to shield themselves from any type of judgement. It doesn't matter what anyone else experiences or goes through, as long as, number one is ok. And of course, that is themselves. The only thing that I can do is pray for people with that mentality. I am a Pro-lifers and I care about the woman, the baby and the couple desiring to adopt. I am not some radical extremist with no heart, religious fanatic, unmerciful and an enemy of womens rights. Come on now, I am a woman. However, I know my role and I know my limitations as a woman. I have rights; however, they are not to supercede other peoples rights, as humans with the breathe of life; regardless, of their location, environment, age or size. I can go on, but I will not. Selah.

]]> By: Nulono http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2096 Nulono Fri, 10 Sep 2010 07:36:21 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2096 "Choose" is a transitive verb; it needs an object. I am for a woman's right to choose to eat meat, drive a car, vote, drink alcohol, use marijuana, and wear pants. I am against a woman (or anyone) being given the "right" to own a slave, to commit arson, rape, kidnapping, or assault, or to take an innocent human life. Please explain the relevance of viability. Viability is heavily dependent upon the medical technology available. A fetus that's viable today would not have been viable 500 years ago. "Choose" is a transitive verb; it needs an object. I am for a woman's right to choose to eat meat, drive a car, vote, drink alcohol, use marijuana, and wear pants. I am against a woman (or anyone) being given the "right" to own a slave, to commit arson, rape, kidnapping, or assault, or to take an innocent human life.

Please explain the relevance of viability. Viability is heavily dependent upon the medical technology available. A fetus that's viable today would not have been viable 500 years ago.

]]> By: BenW http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2095 BenW Fri, 10 Sep 2010 02:24:00 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2095 Richard, what is you specific qualification for a human being, that it can survive without imprinting? Isn't that just a stage, just as a toddler's full reliance on his mother is just a stage? A fetus has the same genetic material, no new information will be added. It has human parents, how can human parents create something non-human? Richard, what is you specific qualification for a human being, that it can survive without imprinting? Isn't that just a stage, just as a toddler's full reliance on his mother is just a stage? A fetus has the same genetic material, no new information will be added. It has human parents, how can human parents create something non-human?

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2094 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:20:12 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2094 Rereading my comments for accuracy I stumbled upon this comment from above: "Try walking into a planned parenthood center when pregnant, to talk about all your options, and tell them you want to put your baby up for adoption. See how supportive they are of that idea. I can guarantee you they won’t like it. It won’t get them the money that abortion will." All assertions in this statement are provably false. How can your movement expect to create support among educated people for the permanent criminalization of abortion if you cannot make credible statements? Can your organizers name any movement that succeeded over time when a strategy was followed? If clearly is not working for the Prop 8 crowd. Eventually objective truth always wins out. Always. Rereading my comments for accuracy I stumbled upon this comment from above:

"Try walking into a planned parenthood center when pregnant, to talk about all your options, and tell them you want to put your baby up for adoption. See how supportive they are of that idea. I can guarantee you they won’t like it. It won’t get them the money that abortion will."

All assertions in this statement are provably false. How can your movement expect to create support among educated people for the permanent criminalization of abortion if you cannot make credible statements? Can your organizers name any movement that succeeded over time when a strategy was followed? If clearly is not working for the Prop 8 crowd. Eventually objective truth always wins out. Always.

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2093 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 15:01:01 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2093 "For your edification, here is the definition of ad hominem: “attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.” This comes from the Latin for “to the man.” It is an ad hominem attack to call pro-lifers “anti-choicers.” In fact, you’ve committed intellectual dishonesty by even defending your usage of it." Ok, this is an ad hominem attack against me. I still fail to see that using the label "anti-choice" in the current discussion to highlight that the issue I am discussing is whether one is in favor of a women's right to choose or against it, while still allowing anyone to label themselves anyway they choose is an ad hominem. "For your edification, here is the definition of ad hominem: “attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.” This comes from the Latin for “to the man.” It is an ad hominem attack to call pro-lifers “anti-choicers.” In fact, you’ve committed intellectual dishonesty by even defending your usage of it."

Ok, this is an ad hominem attack against me.

I still fail to see that using the label "anti-choice" in the current discussion to highlight that the issue I am discussing is whether one is in favor of a women's right to choose or against it, while still allowing anyone to label themselves anyway they choose is an ad hominem.

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2092 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:55:14 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2092 “I can provide rational justification for treating unborn humans as valuable entities, the way we treat born humans. If you are actually interested in that rational justification, then go to <a href="http://www.caseforlife.com/”" rel="nofollow">http://www.caseforlife.com/”</a> Ok, the arguments at that site are the same as ones here, I have refuted those. By the way, their section labeled "The Scientific Case" contains no science at all, just a bunch of quotes. Is that really the best you have? “I can provide rational justification for treating unborn humans as valuable entities, the way we treat born humans. If you are actually interested in that rational justification, then go to http://www.caseforlife.com/”

Ok, the arguments at that site are the same as ones here, I have refuted those. By the way, their section labeled "The Scientific Case" contains no science at all, just a bunch of quotes. Is that really the best you have?

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2091 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:51:49 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2091 "Richard, this article may help with the misconception that the unborn develop like a skyscraper. <a href="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2006/11/stith-arguing-with-pro-choicer"" rel="nofollow">http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2006/11/st...</a> I just found it confusing, full of straw men, and containing many scientific errors. Can you summarize for me what you gathered from it you find enlightening? "Richard, this article may help with the misconception that the unborn develop like a skyscraper. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2006/11/st…

I just found it confusing, full of straw men, and containing many scientific errors. Can you summarize for me what you gathered from it you find enlightening?

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2090 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:43:31 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2090 "I guess I didn’t refresh fast enough. Richard, you are not making arguments, you are trying in desperation to prove your side. As such, I will no longer argue with you. Good day." Thanks for the discussion. For the record, I don't feel desperate, as I have used no appeals to emotion, or distortion of scientific fact, or logical fallacies. I have merely pointed out that the arguments used by the anti-choice movement do. "I guess I didn’t refresh fast enough. Richard, you are not making arguments, you are trying in desperation to prove your side. As such, I will no longer argue with you. Good day."

Thanks for the discussion. For the record, I don't feel desperate, as I have used no appeals to emotion, or distortion of scientific fact, or logical fallacies. I have merely pointed out that the arguments used by the anti-choice movement do.

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2089 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:40:04 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2089 "Actually, Richard, you misunderstood. Which was probably my fault for not explaining clearly. What if a woman is just a month pregnant, but something severe happens and she faces the decision that her life is in jeopardy. The child could then be transported from her womb to the artificial womb to live. That is completely relevant to the conversation because you used viability as one of your arguments." Because viability is a legitimate area of discussion and our current abortion laws reflect this. A recently passed law (Nebraska?) made a precise statement as to when an abortion is allowed (prior to 20 weeks). This law was passed by anti-choicers, who somehow possess a precise definition of when conception occurs and when taking away a women's right to terminate begins. But this is not the issue is it? The issue is making abortion illegal without giving a justification that does not resort to personal prejudice. I have pointed out that the fertilized cell is doomed to extinction by its very design until imprinted by the mother. Would you say a non-viable organism should be treated differently than a viable one? I would. "Actually, Richard, you misunderstood. Which was probably my fault for not explaining clearly. What if a woman is just a month pregnant, but something severe happens and she faces the decision that her life is in jeopardy. The child could then be transported from her womb to the artificial womb to live. That is completely relevant to the conversation because you used viability as one of your arguments."

Because viability is a legitimate area of discussion and our current abortion laws reflect this. A recently passed law (Nebraska?) made a precise statement as to when an abortion is allowed (prior to 20 weeks). This law was passed by anti-choicers, who somehow possess a precise definition of when conception occurs and when taking away a women's right to terminate begins.

But this is not the issue is it? The issue is making abortion illegal without giving a justification that does not resort to personal prejudice.

I have pointed out that the fertilized cell is doomed to extinction by its very design until imprinted by the mother. Would you say a non-viable organism should be treated differently than a viable one? I would.

]]> By: Richard Moore http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2088 Richard Moore Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:32:00 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2088 "Are you saying that non-anti-choicers do not believe in rights or morality? I’m trying to appeal to common human moral intuition about right and wrong. If the claim is that such concepts do not exist, we need to shift the discussion to another level." Clearly such concepts exist. They are however not in agreement when it comes to specifics. If you wish to imply the concept of absolute right and wrong, give it up, better people than either you are I have failed at this task. "Are you saying that non-anti-choicers do not believe in rights or morality? I’m trying to appeal to common human moral intuition about right and wrong. If the claim is that such concepts do not exist, we need to shift the discussion to another level."

Clearly such concepts exist. They are however not in agreement when it comes to specifics. If you wish to imply the concept of absolute right and wrong, give it up, better people than either you are I have failed at this task.

]]> By: Clinton http://liveaction.org/blog/responding-to-pro-lifers-are-you-willing-to-adopt-all-the-babies/comment-page-1/#comment-2087 Clinton Thu, 09 Sep 2010 14:31:12 +0000 http://liveaction.org/blog/?p=1034#comment-2087 I guess I didn't refresh fast enough. Richard, you are not making arguments, you are trying in desperation to prove your side. As such, I will no longer argue with you. Good day. I guess I didn't refresh fast enough. Richard, you are not making arguments, you are trying in desperation to prove your side. As such, I will no longer argue with you. Good day.

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