In a recent episode of The Ellen Fisher Podcast, pro-life board-certified OB/GYN Dr. Monique Ruberu and pro-abortion dual-certified nurse midwife and psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner Lynn Wolf debated whether induced abortion — the direct and intentional killing of preborn children — is ever medically necessary. Fisher’s podcast asked the question: “Will abortion bans prevent women from getting the care that they need?”
Both women appeared to agree that pro-life laws do not and would not prevent pregnant women from receiving medical care.
Fisher began by explaining that she was connected with Ruberu who was interested in discussing that question with another medical professional, but when Fisher set out to find one, she was “ignored by many” pro-abortion doctors, and “one of them even flat out said it was unethical to even have this discussion” and that the “discussion itself could be harmful.” She was about to give up on having the debate when Wolf said she would participate.
What is an abortion?
Fisher asked the two women to each define what an abortion is.
Ruberu answered, “Abortion is the intentional ending of life of a pre-born human being.”
Wolf said, “I only slightly disagree on that because abortion, I mean there’s therapeutic abortion and spontaneous abortion. So any loss of a pregnancy whether intentionally instigated or not is considered in medical terminology to be abortion.”
Ruberu responded, “You’re exactly correct, I think … in context of this conversation, I would say abortion is what I was saying, but in terms of medical terminology, it gets so confusing for women […] Spontaneous abortion simply means that you had a miscarriage. It doesn’t mean that you chose to abort your pregnancy. … Often times, there’s a lot of misconceptions as well about, ‘Is an ectopic pregnancy, is taking care of that, is that an abortion?’ So in terms of abortion, the only abortion that people who are taking the stance of pro-life […] would say is an abortion is the idea of intentionally ending the life of a living human begin which is pre-born.”
Wolf agreed that it can be confusing and people have to step back and think about what is exactly being talked about.
Is induced abortion ever medically necessary?
While Wolf said she believes there are circumstances in which induced abortion — the intentional killing of the child — is medically necessary, she also noted that she “has yet to see one.” Ruberu disagreed that induced abortion is ever medically necessary and said the attitude of the doctor can have a huge influence on a woman’s decision to abort.
“I truly believe that there is never an instance where abortion is necessary medically,” she said. “I believe that there is a difference between ending a pregnancy earlier through delivery in those difficult situations if you have to, versus actually going in and ending the life of this pre-born human being that cannot speak for itself.”
Wolf said she “liked that [Ruberu] made that distinction” between abortion and maternal-fetal separation such as preterm delivery or emergency C-section “because we just tend to blanket everything under the term ‘abortion,’ but for example, somebody who has a pregnancy that’s implanted outside of the uterus, that’s going to threaten her life, so are we making that distinction here where we’re choosing to terminate a life or are we making a decision here where we’re choosing to preserve a life of the mother?”
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Ruberu explained that in an ectopic pregnancy, there is no chance for the baby to survive, and to allow the baby to continue to grow would put the mother’s life at risk and therefore the baby’s life as well. The intention of the treatment for ectopic pregnancy is not to kill the child but to save the mother. Therefore, it is not prohibited by any pro-life law and is not considered an induced abortion.
Ruberu explained, “[I]t’s more about the intentionality of it, right? So if somebody is choosing to end the life of their child through abortion, that is very different from a mom who has an ectopic pregnancy and would have given anything not to have had an ectopic pregnancy. The physician who is removing that pregnancy, yes, that preborn child is not going to survive, but the intention is not to kill that preborn child. The intention is to save the mother’s life versus in elective abortion, the intention is to kill and to end that life.”
Wolf agreed, saying that people often overreact to pro-life laws and that pro-life laws do not include the prohibition of situations such as ectopic pregnancies. She said ectopic pregnancies and induced abortions are two different, separate issues, noting that while she agrees abortion is never medically necessary, she still thinks it should be an option for women.
Ruberu spoke to the strong reactions following the fall of Roe v. Wade in which lies spread that “women are going to die of ectopics because you can’t remove an ectopic pregnancy and they just want to kill women and you know, you have a miscarriage and you’re going to become septic because you can’t have a D&E because that’s the same as an abortion and abortions are illegal. And that has never been the case. There have always been laws in place that the difference is if you have an ectopic pregnancy that is a known medical emergency, that any physician can — even in Texas or any place where it’s illegal to have an abortion — you can absolutely have a removal of an ectopic pregnancy. You can absolutely have a D&E procedure if you’ve had a miscarriage ….”
Is abortion necessary for a fetal diagnosis?
Wolf continued the conversation by confirming that abortion is “absolutely not” necessary for a diagnosis such as Down syndrome.
“We’re trained to let our patients know they have options but it’s sort of like, you’re damned if you do and you’re damned if you don’t, right? Because then I present these options and I’m a horrible person for saying, ‘You do have options,'” she explained.
Ruberu called that “really challenging” and added, “I think it’s much harder for you than it is for me because it wouldn’t be an option for me, so I would never say it. But for you, you’re kind of like, you don’t … feel good about having to say it.”
Both women agreed that it is not medically necessary to abort a baby who has received a fetal diagnosis, even if the child will likely die at birth.
Is induced abortion necessary in an emergency?
The women went on to discuss more in-depth the difference between preterm delivery in an emergency versus inducing an abortion in an emergency. Sometimes, said Ruberu, there is “good reason to discontinue the pregnancy and to deliver that baby. But if you’re talking about doing a second or third-trimester abortion at that time, that’s going to take two or three days because you’ve got to now ripen the cervix, dilate the cervix, and then do this procedure versus I could have you in the operating room and within five minutes I could have that baby out and we could have that baby in your arms and we could sew up your belly and you know we can stabilize a mom in that situation. But I do not agree with dismembering or intentionally killing that child. That child may not survive and miraculously that child may survive. We never know. But it’s the intentional ending of that life which I have an issue with.”
Wolf argued that it might not be psychologically beneficial for the mother to lose the baby after a preterm delivery. However, research shows that carrying to term is more psychologically beneficial to the mother than aborting.
More to agree on than disagree
During the discussion, Ruberu and Wolf agreed far more than they disagreed, including that abortion is not necessary when a child receives a health diagnosis — even Trisomy 18 — or when a mother faces a situation such as preeclampsia. They both said that preterm delivery to save a mother’s life is not an induced abortion. They also agreed that doctors shouldn’t leave preterm babies to die but should offer them support and try to save them.
Ultimately, the podcast exposed that abortion-friendly medical professionals and anti-abortion medical professionals understand what is and isn’t an induced abortion and that induced abortion is not medically necessary. Yet, the pro-abortion media and pro-abortion organizations continue to exploit tragic stories to promote abortion as health care.
Watch the full discussion here.
